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petcat 2 days ago [-]
This should also indicate which EUDI wallets will require Google or Apple device attestation. My guess is all of them.
For all the talk about digital sovereignty, EU still builds the fundamental element of EU citizenship, the digital ID, on American companies. Baffling.
What's more - you won't be limited to using your national wallet - you would be able to use whichever implementation works for you (so, for example Duch one).
Alas: yes, UE should push harder to avoid google/apple :/
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
But it was a problem that peered from long ago, it was implicit in the plans (cpr. the "digital euro"), and if you do not secure what you need for your plans doubts are legitimately cast about you.
Edit: sorry, there is a possibility there is a case of bad communication. A comment nearby (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50486125) mentions the open specs could allow for the non-requirement of Google, Apple and the likes. I may have leant on thinking that the situation could be similar to that of age verification - for which the EU built open software for ZKP, but it is said to require Google or Apple or the likes.
preisschild 2 days ago [-]
> more - you won't be limited to using your national wallet - you would be able to use whichever implementation works for you
Unfortunately not true. You can verify other nations IDs but you can only bind your ID to the eID wallet of the nation you are a citizen of.
I doubt that will ever matter. There are niche alternatives to lots of American tech. But that isn't what the "digital sovereignty" push is about. It's about not building fundamental services on American Big Tech in the first place.
But it's obvious that nobody really cares about it after all. For instance, Germany's own official EUDI wallet for Android explicitly requires Google Play Integrity
You are linking to version 0.14.0 of the documentation. The latest version is 0.19.0. The release notes of 0.15.0 mention that they dropped the Play Integrity dependency
petcat 2 days ago [-]
Good news
danaris 1 days ago [-]
> But it's obvious that nobody really cares about it after all.
That's not remotely obvious.
The push for digital sovereignty is only a few months old. Governments work on timescales of years—or even decades.
It's certainly true that it would be good if they could be a bit more responsive, particularly in this fast-paced digital age. But demanding them to be doing that already, today, is just not living in the real world.
noelnh 2 days ago [-]
Okay scratch my doubtfulness from the other comment, of course you're right what was I even thinking. Man I really hate that.
ActionAmmonia 2 days ago [-]
The play integrity dependency was removed in version 0.15.0
preisschild 2 days ago [-]
Its an open spefication but the identity issuers (your country) locks it down so only their own wallet can be used for their countries ID
functionmouse 2 days ago [-]
Does one exist which does not require integration with Apple, Google, or Microsoft services?
Semaphor 2 days ago [-]
The German teams AMA said it doesn't. Though for legal reasons it'll need to be certified for every OS.
InsidiousWombat 2 days ago [-]
Polish one already have app that de facto works as ID and uses independent authentication than Google's/Apples (using either banks or govt site for it)
danelski 2 days ago [-]
Yet it mandates that you have access to Google Play for Android or App Store for iOS and use an OS that wasn't modified or replaced. They also specifically tell you it shouldn't be run if your device is rooted or you have an unlocked bootloader
Yeah but that's easier to decouple than using google login
spwa4 1 days ago [-]
Can you run google play store without Google login?
signatoremo 2 days ago [-]
Any talks about physical sovereignty? Why do EU let its auto industry struggle against Chinese EVs? What about electronic products? Why can Europe wean off foreign energy such as from US or Middle East or Russia?
swiftcoder 2 days ago [-]
> Why do EU let its auto industry struggle against Chinese EVs? What about electronic products? Why can Europe wean off foreign energy such as from US or Middle East or Russia?
Your two goals are fundamentally at odds with each other: cheap Chinese solar panels and EVs are the only realistic route to energy independence.
That many of the EU car manufacturers bet hard against the EV transition, is pretty much a bed of their own making.
InsidiousWombat 1 days ago [-]
EU car industry languished in safety too long, focusing on how to bump the price of cars up and up while having them less and less reliable.
It can't survive honest competition, let alone one that also benefits from lower costs
moi2388 15 hours ago [-]
You are saying the Chinese EVs which came into being by corporate espionage and which are government subsidised to exactly destroy EU car production is honest competition?
preisschild 2 days ago [-]
Why should people be forced to only choose from a limited amount of suppliers?
eternauta3k 2 days ago [-]
Why should China buy our chips / other 1000 exports if we refuse to buy their cars?
oblio 2 days ago [-]
I have bad news for you, China doesn't import much these days, except for raw resources.
spwa4 1 days ago [-]
> Any talks about physical sovereignty?
You mean about the 3.5 wars Europe is directly involved in? Up from 2 three years ago.
Ukraine - Russia
Russia - Black Sea EU member states (esp. Bulgaria, but also Greece)
Turkey - Greece
Russia - Georgia (kind of)
cicko 1 days ago [-]
That way you can list pretty much any combination of countries around the world.
MonkeyClub 1 days ago [-]
> Turkey - Greece
How’s that a war?
spwa4 20 hours ago [-]
See Cyprus. Plus there was a coast guard confrontation this year with shots fired.
MonkeyClub 16 hours ago [-]
That’s a bit far from a hot war like Ukraine or Iran.
Cyprus’ ongoing occupation since the 1974 invasion is, of course, another thing (habitually not raised in either the UN or the EU), though Cyprus is a sovereign state with Greece as only an inert guarantor nation.
noelnh 2 days ago [-]
So your being baffled relies solely on your guess being correct? It kinda feels like a good idea to wait until we know for sure.
I mean I wouldn't really be surprised if you were right, but I also want to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
petcat 2 days ago [-]
I looked at the source code for Germany's Android EUDI wallet and confirmed my suspicion that it will require Google. So I have very little doubt about any of the others too.
Edit: apparently the requirement was dropped in a later version
pimeys 2 days ago [-]
Can we just say no I do not want to use the digital identification and continue our lives as before?
ktosobcy 2 days ago [-]
You can...
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
It will have to be seen. E.g. try to travel in some countries without carrying electronic payment systems.
ktosobcy 10 hours ago [-]
Imagine trying to travel in some countries with electronic payment system ;) (I mean Germany for example :P)
s_dev 2 days ago [-]
[dead]
mooreds 2 days ago [-]
I've been following this for a while. The deadline for rollout for consumers is the end of this year, but I'm not sure every country is going to make it.
The idea is that every person will have the option to use a wallet. For businesses of a certain size or type (those involved in strongly authenticating their customers, or very large platforms with more than 45M EU users) have to accept it by the end of 2027.
> The idea is that every person will have the option to use a wallet.
And the rest of the population will effectively be bullied into also using it because companies/service-providers make using alternative methods much harder to use, because they are more expensive.
It's unfortunately predictable how this will play out.
miohtama 2 days ago [-]
Aadhaar from India is an example. Even by the law you must be able to live without it, it is not practice in case and banks and telecoms demand it.
And when you lost your phone say bye to your life.
How are passkeys, passwords, or social login more expensive to implement?
What am I missing?
Or are you talking about non-electronic means of authentication, like presenting a passport or driver's license?
vaylian 2 days ago [-]
> What am I missing?
This is about government-issued credentials. When you provide a digital service in the EU where that service is required to determine the age of a user then the EU wallet is able to prove that the user is above a certain age. Or if you actually need to verify the legal identity of a user, then the EU wallet will be able to provide that identity to you. It is as official as it can get.
If you want to use your own age-verification or id-verification, then you need to rely on face scanning and other creepy stuff. The EU wallet is better in that regard, but it's existence will also mean that the EU and national governments will push harder for people to be identified online and offline. Using the internet anonymously will get a lot harder.
mooreds 2 days ago [-]
Ah, thanks for explaining. I was focused on the authentication aspects of the wallet. I can certainly see how the IDV and age-verification functionality would impact private vendors.
gbalduzzi 2 days ago [-]
> Or are you talking about non-electronic means of authentication, like presenting a passport or driver's license?
Yes, I think that would be a more appropriate comparison. Alternatives are very expensive and very hard to implement in-house
wolvoleo 2 days ago [-]
As long as it's required to have an account with Apple or Google I'm not going to use it.
stavros 2 days ago [-]
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll have a choice for most of it.
wolvoleo 2 days ago [-]
We do, it's not like this wouldn't work without play integrity. They'd just have to trust the user a bit more. These things aren't to protect the user, but because they don't trust the user.
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
You always have that choice. And on the other hand, when principles are in the game, there is in fact no choice: it is a no.
We do not associate with lowly lunatics that believe normal a demand to have google or apple accounts.
preisschild 2 days ago [-]
Its not just the account. You essentially have to give Apple/Google FULL ROOTKIT access to your device which includes all of your personal data for the hardware attestation to work...
ThatMedicIsASpy 2 days ago [-]
There is a 3day old AMA of the German team talking about it (in German)
This is very useful. It clears up one misconception in this thread. That all EU countries will require Apple/Google attestation for this to work. This debunks that.
goodcake3963 2 days ago [-]
I didn't investigate further, but the italian implementation, right now, apart from the fact it requires USA attestation (Play Integrity and the likes), it's not bad at all, it's just a convenient tool to not carry paper documents when asked officially by a public official. Plus we receive official documents like fines directly there
ThrowRA156 2 days ago [-]
I don't understand how the identity/authentication part of the IO app differs from the CieID app. Wouldn't that functionality be covered by the ability to log in with CIE using the CieID app?
mongol 2 days ago [-]
I visited Italy this summer. Some apps I used for travelling, such as some of the train travel apps, were top notch. I was very positively surprised.
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
> apart from the fact it requires USA attestation
So, apart from the fact that it is broken in its design.
And: you mean the USA, still that entity that decides who has a working USA telephone or not? When you are "flagged", electronic devices controlled by firms controlled by them stop working?
goodcake3963 1 days ago [-]
Yes, again that is a big problem that it doesn't work on GrapheneOS and others, ironic, because it's supposed to be sovereign
jasonvorhe 2 days ago [-]
Not gonna touch any of this even under duress.
nsoam 2 days ago [-]
They’ll make it mandatory for you to use it unless you’re ready to be an outcast.
Need a bank account? A phone number? To have your car licence renewed? You’ll need it.
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
Would you live there?
nsoam 2 days ago [-]
So what am I supposed to do, flee my country?
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
So what are you supposed to do, take absurd ideas as normal and contribute to their spread? If that is your seat, it was already; if it is not, an outcast wondering what you are doing there with those people you will be.
nsoam 2 days ago [-]
All I did was explain what is going to happen. That doesn’t make me part of anything.
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
I cannot know about "you-you": you asked and were replied with the plausible fair picture. Many will cave in, having their own priorities; some will sweat hard for the basics and wonder if being there makes any sense - from a point of view of sheer assessement; few will flee, because nowadays it is hard to find an adequate safe spot where to flee.
wronex 11 hours ago [-]
It beats uploading a picture of your face and ID to random corps that promise to use your biometrics for AI training. Here they only get a cert.
IceDane 2 days ago [-]
Because you're afraid of it? You should really look into the underlying technology.
2 days ago [-]
903543958568 1 days ago [-]
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" - unelected supreme leader Ursula von der Leyen
_ink_ 2 days ago [-]
They named the German version of this d-you. Not sure what they were thinking or why it even needed a different name. It's just confusing and a really bad name.
Edit: just noticed everyone has its own name for it? How do they envision this when traveling? Every officer needs to know the 25 different versions of this? why can't it be one app for Europe?
2 days ago [-]
mdp2021 2 days ago [-]
Years ago the mobile devices I knew had NFC capabilities one could switch on and off. Then some suggested that new devices and OS should have NFC always on. What is the situation now? Can you turn NFC off in "smartphones"?
altern8 2 days ago [-]
In Poland, we have SSO using your bank account to prove it's you , you have a valid ID, etc.
Very convenient to handle government matters without going to an office
TheBlight 2 days ago [-]
The ultimate unbanking tool. Say something naughty on the internet? Attend the wrong protest? Bye bye money.
aliasxneo 2 days ago [-]
Do we really need to put on tin hats to come to this conclusion? Do people really value convenience that much? As a privacy advocate it just seems like such foreign thinking to me.
rsynnott 1 days ago [-]
That's... not what this is. Think wallet as in where you put your ID, not where you put your money. This is an ID tool (with ZKP age verification thrown in).
TheBlight 1 days ago [-]
It will be used to initiate and authenticate payments. It's explicitly tied to the KYC/AML infrastructure.
danelski 2 days ago [-]
Oh, I forgot that most people still store their wealth in the form of paper currency and gold bars in their cellars.
1 days ago [-]
TheBlight 1 days ago [-]
What do you imagine the goal is here? Efficiency?
danelski 1 days ago [-]
My opinion doesn't matter here. I imagine most people wouldn't be able to survive a regular month if they were left to whatever money is stored at their house. Maybe more if they sell memorabilia and go into some survival mode. What's the practical loss of freedom with the digital wallets for people who already pay with card for sub-5 EUR purchases?
TheBlight 1 days ago [-]
Using a card for low cost purchases is a reversible convenience whereas this system turns financial participation into a revocable privilege strongly tied to your ID that can be controlled at a single point.
danelski 1 days ago [-]
Which of the points: tied to an ID, reversible isn't met by a typical card?
IBM, Atos and Leonardo. Wow. What an unholy combination. It's like choosing arsenic as an ingredient and wondering why your dinner guests died
I get the impression the issue is more to do with the top down edict, compared to eg talking to each country and understanding their border patrol situation and offering to improve that first with resources. It came off the back of a turbulent period where border patrol strikes during COVID and the situation was just about stabilising. Pretty bad timing imo
Border security is controlled by each member state and you can't just ignore that fact and pass some EU wide harmonised change and just hope for the best
ktosobcy 10 hours ago [-]
As alwasy EU not being a country/federation makes everything... just difficult.
On the one hand I understand that each country has sovereign interest but in this world EU not federating and working closely will not end well :/
zkmon 2 days ago [-]
EU is definitely miles ahead of USA and other developed nations in building regulatory coverage most IT things. That's a great thing on one hand, but also leads to business and user friction on the other hand, due to the process burden and tech challenges the one need to go through. Every innovation has a hidden cost that gets shadowed by the excitement of the innovation.
Not to mention the huge centralization that is being caused by cloud tech. Centralization creates single point of failures and network effects.
iknowstuff 2 days ago [-]
This overall commentary about EU's regulation seems misplaced here.
Harmonization of digital IDs is a good thing. It makes cross-border business easier and more secure. Integration of European markets is the whole point of the EU.
christkv 2 days ago [-]
No it's not because in the wrong hands this is a tool og tyranny
pbkompasz 2 days ago [-]
80% of the comments here are negative, which means that EU is on the right path
2 days ago [-]
903543958568 1 days ago [-]
You must be Kim Jong Un's biggest fan.
einarfd 2 days ago [-]
They seem to have forgotten the EEA countries, but added Ukraine. Seems somewhat weird and dare I say unserious?
fami-com 1 days ago [-]
I presume it's because we've already had a digital wallet like this for like 7 years or so, while EEA countries presumably don't, so there's nothing to write about them
christkv 2 days ago [-]
No thank you I do not want the EU to have digital kill switch on my life.
IceDane 2 days ago [-]
This is a terrible website. So many things, at least on mobile, do not indicate they're doing anything. Like tapping the map and so on. Also seems very vibey, which is fine, but didn't anyone try this out?
For all the talk about digital sovereignty, EU still builds the fundamental element of EU citizenship, the digital ID, on American companies. Baffling.
What's more - you won't be limited to using your national wallet - you would be able to use whichever implementation works for you (so, for example Duch one).
Alas: yes, UE should push harder to avoid google/apple :/
Edit: sorry, there is a possibility there is a case of bad communication. A comment nearby (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50486125) mentions the open specs could allow for the non-requirement of Google, Apple and the likes. I may have leant on thinking that the situation could be similar to that of age verification - for which the EU built open software for ZKP, but it is said to require Google or Apple or the likes.
Unfortunately not true. You can verify other nations IDs but you can only bind your ID to the eID wallet of the nation you are a citizen of.
But it's obvious that nobody really cares about it after all. For instance, Germany's own official EUDI wallet for Android explicitly requires Google Play Integrity
https://bmi.usercontent.opencode.de/eudi-wallet/wallet-devel...
That's not remotely obvious.
The push for digital sovereignty is only a few months old. Governments work on timescales of years—or even decades.
It's certainly true that it would be good if they could be a bit more responsive, particularly in this fast-paced digital age. But demanding them to be doing that already, today, is just not living in the real world.
https://www.gov.pl/attachment/735d96d3-8d85-492c-8d00-0a80c2...
Your two goals are fundamentally at odds with each other: cheap Chinese solar panels and EVs are the only realistic route to energy independence.
That many of the EU car manufacturers bet hard against the EV transition, is pretty much a bed of their own making.
It can't survive honest competition, let alone one that also benefits from lower costs
You mean about the 3.5 wars Europe is directly involved in? Up from 2 three years ago.
Ukraine - Russia
Russia - Black Sea EU member states (esp. Bulgaria, but also Greece)
Turkey - Greece
Russia - Georgia (kind of)
How’s that a war?
Cyprus’ ongoing occupation since the 1974 invasion is, of course, another thing (habitually not raised in either the UN or the EU), though Cyprus is a sovereign state with Greece as only an inert guarantor nation.
I mean I wouldn't really be surprised if you were right, but I also want to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
https://bmi.usercontent.opencode.de/eudi-wallet/wallet-devel...
Edit: apparently the requirement was dropped in a later version
The idea is that every person will have the option to use a wallet. For businesses of a certain size or type (those involved in strongly authenticating their customers, or very large platforms with more than 45M EU users) have to accept it by the end of 2027.
More details on the wallet here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eudi-wallet/
And the rest of the population will effectively be bullied into also using it because companies/service-providers make using alternative methods much harder to use, because they are more expensive.
It's unfortunately predictable how this will play out.
And when you lost your phone say bye to your life.
https://x.com/aniltalwar2/status/2113962947760590969?a=c-N4S...
What am I missing?
Or are you talking about non-electronic means of authentication, like presenting a passport or driver's license?
This is about government-issued credentials. When you provide a digital service in the EU where that service is required to determine the age of a user then the EU wallet is able to prove that the user is above a certain age. Or if you actually need to verify the legal identity of a user, then the EU wallet will be able to provide that identity to you. It is as official as it can get.
If you want to use your own age-verification or id-verification, then you need to rely on face scanning and other creepy stuff. The EU wallet is better in that regard, but it's existence will also mean that the EU and national governments will push harder for people to be identified online and offline. Using the internet anonymously will get a lot harder.
Yes, I think that would be a more appropriate comparison. Alternatives are very expensive and very hard to implement in-house
We do not associate with lowly lunatics that believe normal a demand to have google or apple accounts.
https://redd.it/1xspbzp
So, apart from the fact that it is broken in its design.
And: you mean the USA, still that entity that decides who has a working USA telephone or not? When you are "flagged", electronic devices controlled by firms controlled by them stop working?
Need a bank account? A phone number? To have your car licence renewed? You’ll need it.
Edit: just noticed everyone has its own name for it? How do they envision this when traveling? Every officer needs to know the 25 different versions of this? why can't it be one app for Europe?
Very convenient to handle government matters without going to an office
> Q4 2028. MIRRI plan item: implement EUDI wallet (scope unclear).
> 41 days to the EU deadline
Classic.
I get the impression the issue is more to do with the top down edict, compared to eg talking to each country and understanding their border patrol situation and offering to improve that first with resources. It came off the back of a turbulent period where border patrol strikes during COVID and the situation was just about stabilising. Pretty bad timing imo
Border security is controlled by each member state and you can't just ignore that fact and pass some EU wide harmonised change and just hope for the best
On the one hand I understand that each country has sovereign interest but in this world EU not federating and working closely will not end well :/
Not to mention the huge centralization that is being caused by cloud tech. Centralization creates single point of failures and network effects.
Harmonization of digital IDs is a good thing. It makes cross-border business easier and more secure. Integration of European markets is the whole point of the EU.